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Hello. Welcome back to the Classics Podcast.

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And today I'm delighted to be joined by Claire Marchetti.

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She's a classicist by training and she's recently become carbon and sustainability manager at Historic England,

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having spent five years before that Highways England. So Claire, before we explore your current role, England's own highways have their ancient roots.

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This is of course a Classics podcast, and I thought we could start with something a little bit classical.

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How are Roman roads still part of the fabric of our landscape today?

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They are still very much a part of the fabric, so I don't drive.

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So one thing I always struggled with with Highways England was knowing the different motorways in which they went along.

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But there are some which do still follow those ancient lines for roads or more recently, the historic boundaries.

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So England has a lot of tiny twists, motorways compared to the continent, and it's because we've got lots of historic boundaries which they have to adhere to.

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But if you think about the ancient way roads and where they lead, how they behaved, we're still following them today.

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You know, you can look at the issues around Stonehenge and what they're trying to do to manage that and such.

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And it is all about getting that getting to somewhere as quickly as possible, down that straight down that Roman road.

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It's just unchanged for modern day, really.

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And now we're facing new concerns. You know, how do we build our roads?

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Do we reuse them? Where do we go? How do we live in that changing world?

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And so I think it is is just that natural continuation of the Roman roads isn't it, it's just we're still using them.

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They're still vital. We need them. We just need to change the way we use them.

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Yeah, it's such an amazing legacy. And I suppose the Romans were very much known for their straight roads and you only have to visit,

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for example, the Fosse way or the A10 as well, isn't it?

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That comes directly into London, into Shoreditch, which you don't, you not really aware of in the modern city.

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But suddenly if you actually stopped for a moment,

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looked at and realised just such straight lines and the views that you can still see along those roads are incredible.

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So can we just find out a little bit more about what's your role actually at Highways England?

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I know you said that it wasn't necessarily to do with the roads. I was a little mean taking you onto Roman roads as an immediate topic.

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But what exactly did your role entail?

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I had a couple of roles at now national highways, originally highways England when I joined and all within project management,

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but not typical, going outwards on site project management and say the Dartford crossing.

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If anyone knows that in London I was supporting the procurement of the DART Charge service for that.

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So I was basically a taxman and gaining all the taxes from that unofficially a tax man.

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Obviously I was just helping make sure it's easy and I really focussed on customer experience there as well,

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so making it easy and accessible for everyone. I then moved into the role of project manager for the Net zero plan.

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The carbon net zero plan which was partly how I got my new role,

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and so that was looking at the whole of national highways' carbon footprint and trying to reduce that,

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which is no mean feat as it involves not just all our offices, all our construction works,

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but every single car on the road emitting all of those lovely emissions.

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And so it was a lot of fun and a lot of interest, but quite a big role.

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So it sounds a huge remit. And interesting though, how you've gone from that role.

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That's very much within, I suppose, a modern context of highways and how odd modern transport's working and fitting into a current climate crisis.

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And then in your new role, the carbon part now makes sense, but at historic England.

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So there's this. Can you explain more how that works and how we're presumably looking both to the past and how we preserve at the very present moment?

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Yeah, it's a really exciting time to join, actually.

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And I was over the moon about it because I've been interested in heritage for a long time.

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That was actually something missing from my role at National Highways.

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And so my role is much more is still quite inwards looking at historic England's carbon footprint.

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So the offices, how we use offices, obviously there are historic offices which we use.

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So when this week I'm travelling up to Newcastle to the Newcastle office for the first time and that's a.

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I think between it was built between 14th and the 16th century.

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And so, you know,

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we're really hoping to lead the way and show how people can conserve and improve the heritage as well and use it for a different way.

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They're doing some really exciting things in terms of opening them up for visitors,

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but also actually, you know, how can we reduce our carbon footprint there?

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So I'm really excited about that.

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There's also it will involve going more externally as well and supporting organisations, reduce their carbon footprint site, so, looking at,

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you know, historic properties and such and how they can change the way they interact with them and use them and improve them.

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What I'm really excited about as well as the sustainability side as well.

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So people always talk about carbon like it's the be all and end all and actually

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it's only one part of the environmental sustainability and you do a lot for carbon,

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you generally do well for sustainability as well.

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But I'm really excited to be able to again showcase what we can do with limited space or changes and, you know,

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involving that heritage sector and really keeping that alive while actually facing the future and making ourselves ready for it,

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which is really exciting for me. Really exciting,

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fascinating role. Where you interested in the ancient environment or the ancients kind of attitude

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to preserving their their landscape and their heritage when you were studying the ancient world.

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Probably not. When I was studying it, actually, I was far more involved in the linguistics and how that changed.

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So there was a certain amount of understanding how they viewed their natural world and the words they used, how they described it and such.

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But it's definitely become more of a fascination as I've become more involved in the environment and sustainability and understanding what they did,

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the changes they made.

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And at one point I was considering, you know, potentially doing a PhD and and a lot of it was around the medicine and how they viewed it,

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but they were also looking at the sky and understanding what they,

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they understood about the sky and the constellations and such and how that can translate into modern day.

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So I think there is something which has always kind of tempted me in with that whole, you know, how did they view it?

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How did they interpret it?

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And actually, how does that change how we interpret our way as well and what can we learn from them or what can we actually say?

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No, we change that. We know more now, we can do do things differently.

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But actually with building on that foundation. Yeah.

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And I mean eco criticism and actually looking at ancient environments within text and linguistics two is such a such a huge topic at the moment.

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And I know as a feature of the CA conference in 2024 as well for any people

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out there interested in learning more or even presenting on a topic like that.

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But Claire, you studied at the University of Exeter.

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Was that your first exposure to the ancient world or had you previously studied some classics before you went to university?

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So I studied Latin from year eight, and that was really where my interest came from.

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I, I did it because, well, you had to study in my schooling.

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You write Latin, and then you got to choose whether to drop Latin, French or German.

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And I dropped German because it was the hardest and I found Latin really easy.

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And by the time Latin started to get harder, it had only, you know, I really enjoyed it.

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I enjoyed understanding those links and how it works and how it translates into modern day and that sort of thing.

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So classics seemed like natural choice and for me to go on to study in more depth.

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Yeah. And what was the particular focus when you were at Exeter?

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What were the modules that you picked or the things that particularly resonated with you?

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I it was the linguistics and I never thought I'd say until halfway through my third year.

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And I was like, Oh, I really like grammar, I really do.

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And then Indo European came up, I said, Yes, yes, that's me.

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And I really liked the stories. So the novels of the ancient Greek and Latin world and understanding those and then

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understanding how they influenced modern authors and and the boundaries of fiction,

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I think I do remember as a bit of an odd one within my class,

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because there was one year and people realised that they could basically, if they chose the right modules,

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they only had to study a few texts and I was thinking, Well, but I'm at university to learn.

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Why would I not want to study more? So, you know, I really did and pull in a lot of different things.

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Didn't tend studied material world material culture.

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I found that a bit. It wasn't where my interest lay in, and I'm amazed at people what they can do and what they can learn about it.

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That to me, it is firmly within that linguistics and understanding where the sounds came from,

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how people changed and how linguistics changed.

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our way of thinking. You also, though, did a masters degree afterwards.

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So did that have a particular linguistic focus? It sounds like it may have done it.

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It did. I think I was the only person doing a postgraduate level language module, and I guess it was what was it on?

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It was I'm not sure thing. So it's on, Juvenal and Apuleius. 

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But I always was able with the other modules, which was more around history and such able to pull that folks in.

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And it was quite mixed with people. Some people knew language, some people didn't.

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So I was always able to go back to the original text and the language and be able to pull out further details from them.

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Yes. And then my thesis was on the ancient Greek novels and boundaries of fiction.

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So I kept my feet firmly placed there.

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And all the while, while you were studying both of those degrees, what were some of the obviously you I took so much enjoyment from,

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and I can tell even now, reflecting on it, how much you enjoyed studying in those ways and what were some of the,

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I suppose, the skills that were acquired from doing both and maybe perhaps what you picked up at that point that maybe

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seemed relevant then and then we can translate those into how it's then actually helped shape your career since.

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Interesting: rhetoric and the ability to understand what's being said to me.

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I think that's one thing which has always stuck out.

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I remember one of my teachers saying, The most important thing is to understand and I understand what's being told to you.

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 that language because because then you're in control.

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And that really stuck to me.

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And and yet the ability to form an argument, the ability to debate, but also then the ability to see through what people are saying,

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which and you made the past few years and media presentation and politics abound and such.

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It's it's really important to be able to separate yourself from that and just look at it more objectively and say, you know,

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to be able to form an opinion or to turn around and say, conversely, I can't form an opinion, I don't know enough about it.

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So but at least I know that I don't know enough about it.

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And and that's proven really helpful in my career as well,

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just being able to even articulate arguments and such and understand where people are coming from, I suppose as well.

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You know, being able to read into things a bit more deeply.

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One thing which I hadn't realised I was picking up until I was on a training course surrounded by people who were going, this is amazing.

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And they're going, It's really obvious. And that's actually management techniques, you know,

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typical management techniques and such is very closely linked to the rhetoric and how you draw a crowd in and such.

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And I can't necessarily articulate how useful that's been,

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but it was very bolstering to know that all of these things which people were learning for the first time,

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I just needed to carry on practising and, you know, and then I learnt the way to articulate it and business speak and such.

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And then that made it all the more useful.

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And, and then another way which I've actually deskilled myself slightly because of the jobs which I've been taking on.

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And then so it's a focus of me to improve again is the ability to zone in and out of things.

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You know, if you're, if I'm studying the language, I need to understand the,

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you know, every little bit of the word, but within the context of that wider view.

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And I think that is a skill which is vastly underrated.

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And in the business world actually, and people do appreciate it, it's been told to me several times, people do appreciate that aspect.

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I suppose there's also a slight pragmatism as well.

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You know, we can never really know what people mean. We can never really know true meaning of the word.

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So you've just got to deal with what you've got. And then obviously, if you're dealing with lots of people in the workplace,

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then it's quite helpful to have parameters and someone's not done an action needed doing.

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And what do you do and how do you think your degree's informed your understanding and enjoyment of working within the world of heritage?

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Because as well as working for historic England right now, you've also worked for the National Trust previously as well?

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Yes, I think they set that foundation and they gave me that confidence to be able to do that.

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I would say before I started working in an office, after my degrees,

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I needed a break and I ended up being a live-in carer for five years and then, you know,

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just being a flatmate with someone and being able to do that,

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volunteering and which I don't think I've had the confidence to do if I hadn't had that background in classics.

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And so I think that was really helpful and it always gave me kind of guiding star.

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I knew I wanted to go back to it. I knew I wanted to do something.

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Which was it? You know, Something I really missed in my life right now is actually reading Latin with other people and being good at it.

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You know, I'm practising still, but it's, you know.

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It's I don't think I ever appreciated just how much how lovely it is to spend four years reading Latin and Greek every day.

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And that's your main purpose. So by being able to pull on that and go through to the National Trust and then historic England and you've

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already got a very good foundation for learning about more things or understanding more things and such.

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So I was able to engage with curators and people at the top of their fields in a way which I wouldn't have thought I

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would be able to do purely because I have that grounding in classics and which is incredible when you think about it,

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because, yeah, you're doing what you love aren't you.

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Did you find when you were working for the National Trust that there were difficulties or indeed solutions with engaging people more generally?

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And this may not have been part of your own role, but within working within that organisation,

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with engaging people with our own history and other people's histories, and particularly with younger people.

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Definitely, it was peripheral to my role, I would say.

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So my role was actually helping the properties understand how well they were looking after what they had from a conservation point of view,

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which basically involved a lot of private clothes and eating and cream tea.

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But I enjoyed it and there was a lot of understanding how we were looking after what we had and therefore what

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was engaging to the visitors and such and how to bring them in in that journey and get them more involved.

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So there was quite a lot of work for curators and, you know, and understanding the buildings,

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and talking to the general managers, what matters to them,

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what's special about the properties and how best to actually bring that out,

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and how can we preserve how we conserve and preserve what was there while actually making it relevant to people.

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And, you know, as they come in for a day out, you know, because that's what National Trust is.

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As much as they want people to be involved, it's a nice day out, you know, say, how do you grab people that I don't know.

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there's really a right answer. It's just try things, isn't it? And you'll get some people.

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You won't get other people. And you know, if you're able to connect them on a level that they understand, that's how they start that connection.

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That's how they start to get interested, isn't it? And as soon as you were able to do that,

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it doesn't matter if you're talking about classics or if you know you're talking about classics or the ancient world, but they don't.

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As long as they're connected, they'll make that connection themselves and they'll go off and learn more about it.

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And that's where it becomes powerful.

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I remember the National Trust used to have a passport system, especially for children, so that if you were part of a family pass,

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you could go round and collect the stamps from all the different properties and locations that you visited.

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I really loved doing that as a child is such a great way to to see some so much of and of England.

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And Wales, you were based in the east of England.

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So were there any particular sites that you really enjoyed going to yourself or would recommend to others?

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I could go on and on, but there to. Well, there were three really, which really stuck in my mind.

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One is Blickling Hall in North Norfolk, and it's supposed to be the birthplace of Anne Boleyn, but it's got more history than that.

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And it's your classic stately home lovely grounds.

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And there's just something. Which it was really lovely about.

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And I just really enjoyed every, you know, the passion of everyone.

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I mean, there's passion throughout, but there's something about Blickling, which I really loved,

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and there is this portrait of a lady and just talking to a room steward about that.

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And it was just, I don't know, it really stayed with me. And then Orford Ness and Dunwich Heath.

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So Orford ness is just off the coast.

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You can only access it at certain times, but it's where they developed.

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It's where radar was recognised, it's where they developed the atomic bomb.

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And now it's an internationally designated nature reserve as well as you've got these pagodas where

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they are testing all the atomic bombs and stuff and there's that real sense of we are going to these,

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it, it's, you know, even nestled in nature will survive.

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But you know, how do we document that? How do we live up to what we need to do and how do we do our duty?

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while, actually, preserving this really special environment as well and then Dunwich Heath is just lovely.

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It's it's got a lovely cafe. You can go for walks around and it's surrounded by nature reserves as well.

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So we RSPB have a little bit of land round as well.

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So you just the miles you just going through all of this amazing nature and just being able to breathe in it.

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It's just a wonderful place. Beautiful. Thank you.

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There's a wonderful recommendation. just going back a little bit to your

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different career stages and so much of that has been within the historic field.

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But actually, as you said,

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within project management itself and something that I think people are often not necessarily that aware of as a career path,

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even because you may you may be doing it in so many different industries or sectors or different ways.

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What do you think are some of the key qualities that are needed to work within project management Patience?

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It's and it's a lot of people skills, to be honest.

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I've found depending on the project you do, is it just a lot of engaging with other people and, and, you know,

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pulling them along the journey or pushing them in the right direction and helping hold their hand and such.

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So I think never underestimate the amount of stakeholder engagement which is needed.

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And you've also got to have an eye for detail, which I think classics and the ancient world, if you studying it, does give you,

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because you do have to understand these points and make those connections and, you know,

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get these presumptions out and such as well and, and then just, just discipline I think, you know, I'm.

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A natural project manager in some ways, not a natural project manager in another way, in other ways.

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And I've worked with people who complement me nicely,

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and it's about keeping up that discipline and keeping up that understanding of what's happening

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in its entirety while also being able to focus on certain things and push them forward.

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But for me, the most valuable thing is the stakeholder engagement, and I really enjoy it.

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As frustrating as it is sometimes and that you've just so much of it is just about talking to people and

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understanding what they're doing and then translating that into actions or project management reports,

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that sort of thing. Is there any advice that you would give for Claire coming out of her classics degree about the rest of her burgeoning career?

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Don't worry too much about it. You're going to be working for 50 years.

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You're going to find out what you don't like, and that's just as important as finding out what you like.

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And don't be scared of the grunt work or managing a shared inbox because that's where the opportunities come.

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If you do the grunt work, you understand how things work and you can move up.

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And if you manage a shared inbox, you find out everything.

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You get to see everything you're not supposed to see. You're able to form those connections with people and that network because they're coming in.

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You can see the opportunities. You can find out how not to do things.

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You get all of the gossip and you really learn about a company and about about a topic by managing shared inbox.

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So it's horrible in some ways, but don't be afraid of it because you just get so much.

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You get so much from it. Can you imagine if the Triumvirate had a shared inbox?

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Oh, I think it would have been their downfall. That would be a good historical find.

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I would love to see that. Just sticking with the ancient world and an ancient theme.

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Is there a particular person or place or idea that really resonated or stuck with you?

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It was a thing that you always found kind of most interesting. Yeah.

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So I suppose, like I've mentioned before, it, what really I like is how you can translate things from the ancient world.

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You know what they were talking about? We're still talking about. I think so.

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When one thing which has always stuck with me is Horace, most of the poets actually,

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you know, there's always that poem where they predict that their,

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you know, their works will out will last as long as the Roman Empire or outlast whoever is now in charge right now.

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And I love the fact that they've outdone themselves.

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You know, they probably weren't imagining that the Roman Empire would fall or anything, but it has and their words are still here.

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So that has always I've always loved that.

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I really always it gives me get take the full joy from it.

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And but otherwise it's stoicism, you know, the idea of not wanting of happiness and contentment and such.

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And I find that such. A useful thing in, you know, modern life.

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It's crazy busy. You've got all these calls and your time, your attention, and there's always, you know, Oh, look at this new thing.

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Look at that new thing. Are you doing this? Are you doing that? And just bringing it back to me, right?

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What's happy, what's not happy and I don't like philosophy.

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But stoicism has really always it's it's been able to be a guiding force for me, and it's really helped shape my life for the better, I must admit.

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Brilliant. Thank you so much. I think we will finish with the quickfire round.

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So buckle up. Greek tragedy or Roman novel?

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Roman novel. Nice, easy, wonderful. Juvenal or Apuleius.

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This one also should be very easy now. Socrates or Epicurus.

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Socrates. Hanging Gardens of Babylon or the Colossus of Rhodes, Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Cleopatra or Sappho.

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Cleopatra. She's powerful.

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Canals or railways. Ohh. railways.

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And if you could travel back in time to a single day in the ancient world, when would you go back to goodness?

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And the day Augustus got in.

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So I think they think that he turned up. Yeah, that would be that would be pretty interesting.

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And maybe we could also see his shared inbox. Of the second triumvirate

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And when that all fell apart. Oh, Claire, thank you so much for your time today.

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It's been brilliant chatting to you. Thank you for sharing your career so far with us on the Classics podcast.

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Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful. Thank you.