1
00:00:01,330 --> 00:00:06,640
Welcome back to the Classics podcast and a huge welcome to today's guest, Sam Betley.

2
00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:11,380
Sam studied for a degree in ancient history and archaeology at Durham University,

3
00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:16,090
and he currently works as a senior policy advisor at His Majesty's Treasury.

4
00:00:16,570 --> 00:00:21,730
To many people, Sam, this may seem like an unlikely or unexpected career progression,

5
00:00:21,970 --> 00:00:27,340
but how has your understanding of the past helped you navigate the modern world so far?

6
00:00:28,270 --> 00:00:36,879
Thank you for having me. A tough question to start with. Well, I think firstly that there aren't obvious parallels between a degree in ancient history and

7
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:43,610
archaeology and then a career in the civil service in public policy, and certainly in terms of the content of my degree.

8
00:00:43,630 --> 00:00:50,200
It's fair to say that there isn't much that is that has come up when I've been working at the Treasury for the last five years,

9
00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,030
but the kind of transferable skills 100% there.

10
00:00:54,460 --> 00:01:04,900
And I particularly find parallels between writing essays, projects in both ancient history and archaeology, where you are working with often very incomplete,

11
00:01:05,230 --> 00:01:13,030
piecemeal evidence and trying to make a coherent argument in an essay or an exam as kind of persuade your,

12
00:01:13,030 --> 00:01:16,540
your lecturer or your examiner that you're making a strong case.

13
00:01:17,050 --> 00:01:25,060
And similarly, a lot of my time spent now is putting together advice for ministers who always

14
00:01:25,330 --> 00:01:30,670
want one clear and concise paper with a clear recommendation at the end of it.

15
00:01:30,670 --> 00:01:33,280
And you never have all of the information that you want.

16
00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:37,360
And it would be easy to make the decisions that ministers need to make if you had all of the information you have.

17
00:01:37,780 --> 00:01:45,729
So you need to make the best of a wide range of different sources to come to the most sensible recommendation,

18
00:01:45,730 --> 00:01:49,209
taking into account both the facts of the case and what you know about plans,

19
00:01:49,210 --> 00:01:52,510
the ambitions of the of the party who happens to be in power at any one time.

20
00:01:53,260 --> 00:01:56,910
So that's what I'd say the is parallel in terms of day to day work,

21
00:01:57,310 --> 00:02:02,530
in terms of what you asked about lessons from the ancient world, bring it, bringing those into the workplace.

22
00:02:02,890 --> 00:02:06,730
I might actually give a bit a bit of a non-answer on that one.

23
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:12,459
I've been listening to the rest is History podcast a lot recently and Tom Holland is one of the

24
00:02:12,460 --> 00:02:17,560
presenters on that and he always says a lot about the more he thinks about and studies the ancient world,

25
00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:25,660
the more he just thinks that it's actually kind of almost unfathomably strange compared to compared to the modern world.

26
00:02:26,140 --> 00:02:30,340
And actually the more you the parallels, the more you realise just how very different it all is.

27
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:38,889
So I actually think it's much more interesting to keep kind of the ancient world see that as what it is and actually

28
00:02:38,890 --> 00:02:45,940
kind of love it for how different and how alien it is in so many ways rather than rather than any similarities,

29
00:02:45,940 --> 00:02:47,499
which I'm sure all that are in some areas.

30
00:02:47,500 --> 00:02:54,100
I just think you can get too, too much into it before you come across contradictions and disagreements that you can't get over.

31
00:02:55,220 --> 00:02:57,380
I think that's very wise and diplomatic answer,

32
00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:02,750
although I'd like to see you listening to the Classics podcast as well as the rest is history from now on.

33
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:09,230
I think that it's very true that we don't want to put too much of our own modern perspective back onto the past.

34
00:03:09,500 --> 00:03:12,230
At the same time, we've seen the parallels that do exist.

35
00:03:12,920 --> 00:03:18,010
One thing where there is a parallel, I suppose, is that the Romans in particular did have a civil service.

36
00:03:18,020 --> 00:03:20,659
They were really quite an advanced bureaucracy,

37
00:03:20,660 --> 00:03:25,639
although any interesting parts of that that you think you would have liked to have been involved in if you'd been a Roman,

38
00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,600
would you have also got into a similar career? I think a good question.

39
00:03:29,780 --> 00:03:33,460
I'd love to have known how they got everything done.

40
00:03:33,470 --> 00:03:39,860
Obviously, they had an empire covering a huge proportion of what was the known world at that point.

41
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,370
And we obviously have emails,

42
00:03:43,370 --> 00:03:52,819
phones and everything else to to keep everything to mean that you can make a decision in Whitehall and communicate it to another part of the UK,

43
00:03:52,820 --> 00:03:57,050
another part of the world in seconds, and then it can immediately start to be implemented.

44
00:03:57,470 --> 00:04:00,170
Versus, you know, it must have been weeks at least,

45
00:04:00,170 --> 00:04:08,030
if not quite a few months before a decision made in Rome was to be implemented in Jerusalem or York.

46
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:17,150
That kind of logistical challenge of the amount that must have had to go into overcoming that and making sure whatever the central figures were,

47
00:04:17,300 --> 00:04:20,990
the decisions they were making, they weren't being diluted, changed,

48
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:26,920
interpreted in different ways as they got through from one end of the empire to the next.

49
00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:32,990
So I think that would have been that's the kind of one big challenge that I see kind of immediately thinking about it,

50
00:04:33,020 --> 00:04:36,380
You know, what would I what what would I have done? You know,

51
00:04:36,590 --> 00:04:44,270
I think the military side of it must have been so interesting being able to go and see being able to just go and

52
00:04:44,270 --> 00:04:50,960
see different parts of the world that if you'd grown up in a in a rural Italy somewhere in the first century B.C.,

53
00:04:51,440 --> 00:05:01,069
the opportunity to join the army go and see Gaul and see the near east and see North Africa would have been again,

54
00:05:01,070 --> 00:05:05,600
just massive kind of blowing their mind, saying seeing these new parts of the world,

55
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,620
these new cultures that they had no exposure to in their in their lives.

56
00:05:10,110 --> 00:05:14,059
And but I also I guess so much of it would have been influenced by what family

57
00:05:14,060 --> 00:05:17,620
you're born into or circumstances you're born into in a way that you know,

58
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:21,050
still certainly, still certainly affects things today,

59
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:28,730
but there are at least opportunities now to go and overcome challenges that might be presented to you in terms of your upbringing,

60
00:05:29,630 --> 00:05:38,959
whereas so much of it and so much more of it back in the ancient world was just is your father grandfather their friends?

61
00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:44,930
Are they the right people? Is that probably I imagine you probably could only be a civil servant or at least a relatively

62
00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:49,040
high ranking civil servant If you had friends in the right places in in the ancient world,

63
00:05:49,910 --> 00:05:53,630
I mean, an entry to that cursus honourm, that Political office.

64
00:05:53,810 --> 00:06:01,340
Yeah with military duty, I think was very much dependent upon the rank and privilege of your family and that definite career progression.

65
00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:07,339
And what was what was your own first taste of the ancient world? What got you into wanting to study ancient history and archaeology?

66
00:06:07,340 --> 00:06:16,530
as a degree, Sam? Great question. So I think I said I always loved history and it was always kind of one of my favourite subjects at school,

67
00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:22,170
but I wasn't really exposed to ancient history at all very much.

68
00:06:22,650 --> 00:06:28,650
I did have my history GCSE and history A Level very much tended towards modern history with that.

69
00:06:28,650 --> 00:06:33,210
In my A-level did include the Renaissance, which is really, really interesting.

70
00:06:33,220 --> 00:06:42,270
And the main thing I took away from that was obviously books are inspired by kind of the artistic world of Greece and Rome.

71
00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:46,590
And the main thing I took away from that, what this is really interesting, what's going on in kind of 14th,

72
00:06:46,740 --> 00:06:51,110
16th century Europe that what's all of this stuff inspiring in the first place?

73
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:57,060
What are all these Vitruvian, platonic or Aristotelian ideals they're talking about?

74
00:06:57,540 --> 00:06:59,210
Where did they come from in the first place?

75
00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:06,750
And that was certainly one thing that triggered my mind to get kind of back towards ancient history.

76
00:07:07,500 --> 00:07:14,729
I also kind of in terms of popular culture, watched TV shows like Rome,

77
00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:18,030
which I thought was like the greatest TV show I've ever seen at that point,

78
00:07:18,300 --> 00:07:23,129
Spartacus, that TV series, which is kind of slightly less obviously based on a true story.

79
00:07:23,130 --> 00:07:30,840
But the way they filmed it, for anyone who has seen it, is perhaps kind of less gritty and realistic than the Rome series.

80
00:07:31,230 --> 00:07:37,559
And also historical fiction. I read the books by Conn Iggulden. 

81
00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:46,379
I think he's I think his name is, and he did a really good historical fiction series on Julius Caesar and the late,

82
00:07:46,380 --> 00:07:54,120
late Roman Republic, I think written from Caesar's perspective and very much kind of following following him from childhood.

83
00:07:54,120 --> 00:08:00,960
And I think about four or five books in the end. And that was I kind of read that I didn't think I was really interested in history when I started.

84
00:08:01,350 --> 00:08:08,879
And then when I read about, I thought, These are great stories. But then when I got a little bit more into the history, then I realised, Oh,

85
00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,380
these aren't actually just great stories, they're actually going to correct them, which is actually what happened.

86
00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:20,430
And they were obviously they took some liberties and but when you actually get back into ancient history,

87
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:29,790
certainly having done things like the League of Nations and Cold War and GCSE History, it's interesting, it's important,

88
00:08:30,090 --> 00:08:36,899
but it's all quite kind of procedural and document heavy compared to compare

89
00:08:36,900 --> 00:08:twelve
reading a League of Nations document to reading kind of Suetonius on the town

90
00:08:42,210 --> 00:08:46,710
 Caesars I can to I think everyone would agree Suetonius is far more entertaining

91
00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:50,970
so yeah I think that was that was kind of where I did dipped my toe into it.

92
00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,760
And then the very I think the final kind of thing that decided this is that absolutely whilst at university

93
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:03,629
I went on a trip to Rome to I just after I finished my as levels I think which no longer exist,

94
00:09:03,630 --> 00:09:12,090
which I feel old and the finishing my ASs at the end of last it went to Rome for a week and did all of that classic thing,

95
00:09:12,090 --> 00:09:20,790
seeing the Colosseum and the Palatine, the forum and I'd just been completely blown away by all of that and European hopes ever since.

96
00:09:21,270 --> 00:09:25,589
I, I mean, there's so much you can do in reading about Rome and studying it,

97
00:09:25,590 --> 00:09:28,860
but actually seeing it for real is still quite a mind blowing experience.

98
00:09:28,860 --> 00:09:36,899
And it's just incredible. When you were then at Durham University, so your course was a combined one in that you did both ancient history and archaeology.

99
00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:43,080
As that degree progressed, did you find there was one aspect of that you enjoyed more than the other, or was it a combination of both?

100
00:09:43,660 --> 00:09:51,450
And was archaeology something you did on a practical level as well? So yeah, I'd say first of all, I'd really recommend joint honours.

101
00:09:51,780 --> 00:10:00,899
I think in some some people can be a little bit dubious about it because you can feel perhaps you're not really at home in either department,

102
00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:05,850
rather than rather being at home in both, which I very much felt in, in Durham.

103
00:10:06,150 --> 00:10:11,670
The departments there were really pretty into that and Durham had the extra bonus with the college system as well.

104
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:18,150
So that kind of was actually have that base at the college. And before branching out into that, into the academic departments as well.

105
00:10:18,630 --> 00:10:22,400
But what I really liked about the Joint Honours enabled me to really kind of

106
00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:28,739
balance my degree and also what I found with friends who did single honours,

107
00:10:28,740 --> 00:10:33,149
they would often have one or two modules a year that they actually were not interested in necessarily,

108
00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:35,190
and that they just took. because they had to fill up the credits.

109
00:10:36,030 --> 00:10:40,200
Whereas because I had two departments to choose from, I was always I was always kind of really,

110
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:45,120
really interested in the two or three subject matters that I was dealing with in each

111
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:49,949
department while at the same time being able to branch out into some new areas.

112
00:10:49,950 --> 00:11:01,840
So I did a pre-history module in archaeology, which was fascinating, but then also did some sort of ancient philosophy in,

113
00:11:01,890 --> 00:11:08,400
in classics, which I hadn't had that much exposure to before either, which I still find really, really fascinating.

114
00:11:08,510 --> 00:11:16,010
Aside from my kind of general interest, Roman political, political and cultural history, which is very much my focus.

115
00:11:16,430 --> 00:11:20,839
I'd say kind of overall, I tended towards the classics side of things.

116
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,130
That's what I was most interested in, in when I was coming into the degree.

117
00:11:25,580 --> 00:11:32,270
And it stayed that way largely throughout. But I still found the archaeology side fascinating.

118
00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:42,140
Being able to not just talk about the sources and the history, but see the evidence in the buildings in the cities of different parts,

119
00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:50,810
different parts of the ancient world was a huge, huge advantage, I think, and gave me a new perspective to take to the classics side of things.

120
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,220
And one place where archaeology probably did win out over the classics was on the field trips.

121
00:11:55,730 --> 00:12:04,460
And so I did do some field work. I did three or four weeks at Binchester Roman Fort in County Durham.

122
00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:09,500
I suggest about 20 minute drive from Durham and say Tom's got a bit of an odd thing where

123
00:12:09,500 --> 00:12:12,710
you have you finish your exams and you've got four weeks where everyone's still in Durham,

124
00:12:12,730 --> 00:12:19,910
but nothing's really happening. So for us, they filled out at the end of first year with doing this dig, which is really, really interesting.

125
00:12:20,180 --> 00:12:24,200
We were out in the in the vicus

126
00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:31,790
I think the name of our civilian settlement outside the fort in an old what they thought was an old burial

127
00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:42,290
ground for kind of the for that kind of civilians that was around the hill around the fort there at Binchester.

128
00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:48,050
And so they were you know, they were seven human remains found during that excavation.

129
00:12:48,530 --> 00:12:51,620
Plenty of other finds as well, which made it really, really exciting.

130
00:12:52,010 --> 00:13:01,069
Then I also did a four week field trip in Romania at a border force which had been at the mouth of the Danube.

131
00:13:01,070 --> 00:13:05,540
The Danube moved a few kilometres forwards. It's kind of in the countryside now rather than right by the river.

132
00:13:05,970 --> 00:13:08,390
And that was really, really interesting as well.

133
00:13:08,390 --> 00:13:14,460
And that brought together that wasn't a Durham specific field trip that brought together people from all over the world.

134
00:13:14,490 --> 00:13:19,460
There were people from people from America, people from European universities.

135
00:13:20,030 --> 00:13:25,130
So that was something which made it really fascinating as well.

136
00:13:25,550 --> 00:13:29,900
And then also we got I got to trip to Rome with the archaeology department as well.

137
00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:32,630
We did a module on interpreting Heritage,

138
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:41,210
which is all about kind of examining ancient sites and how they can be how they're kind of presented to the public can be analysed and improved.

139
00:13:41,630 --> 00:13:46,280
I spent a few days in Rome with one of the one of the professors from the archaeology department.

140
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,870
Who was herself from Rome. So she kind of showed us around.

141
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:54,709
We got kind of access into Trajan's market, for example.

142
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:58,730
The members of public aren't normally allowed to go in and walk around, but we were able to see.

143
00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:02,120
So that was, that was a really interesting.

144
00:14:02,780 --> 00:14:07,370
But ultimately I still think you had the classics was still where I where I ended up spending most of my time.

145
00:14:07,370 --> 00:14:11,810
I did my dissertation with the classics department and the archaeology departments.

146
00:14:12,290 --> 00:14:16,859
And then I think in your final year you could kind of do an uneven balance of modules.

147
00:14:16,860 --> 00:14:21,110
So I think ended up doing four classics modules and two archaeology modules in my final year.

148
00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:27,890
But no I think I would definitely recommend the Joint Honours approach to anyone considering it.

149
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,940
And what did you do for your dissertation within a classics context?

150
00:14:32,210 --> 00:14:35,780
So yes, I did, and I try to remember the title of it now,

151
00:14:35,780 --> 00:14:42,200
but it was all about I think I described it as the relationship between early

152
00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:48,050
Christianity and the political religious language of the early Roman Empire.

153
00:14:48,620 --> 00:14:55,820
So it was basically the way I went about it was finding the specific phrases in both Greek and Latin.

154
00:14:56,150 --> 00:15:01,459
So I can remember the Latin was divi Filius, son of God, the facts.

155
00:15:01,460 --> 00:15:07,520
And that, you know, and I certainly wasn't the first person ever to pick up on it that you have son of God in terms of

156
00:15:07,850 --> 00:15:15,320
Christ emerging at a time when Roman emperors were being kind of universally hailed as exactly that.

157
00:15:15,370 --> 00:15:21,169
that I think would be positive, but possibly not a coincidence.

158
00:15:21,170 --> 00:15:30,829
I spent a lot of time going through kind of inscription coin records from Roman Italy and specifically to the Near East,

159
00:15:30,830 --> 00:15:37,530
as well as the areas of the of the empire the early Christians emerged in to find kind of all that kind,

160
00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:42,709
pretty strong evidence that was there for these honorific titles being kind of ubiquitous and

161
00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:48,650
everywhere and and then forming an argument around around that which is really really interesting.

162
00:15:48,650 --> 00:15:55,850
I really enjoyed my dissertation and the freedom to get around that kind of time just reading through the literature,

163
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,319
kind of get more of a more of a leisurely pace and not having the pressure of,

164
00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,170
you know, you've got an essay that had to do every four or five weeks or whatever.

165
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:07,860
You can spend the whole year crafting arguments and working out what you want to say.

166
00:16:08,810 --> 00:16:15,950
So that was I really enjoyed doing that. It's really nice to have that academic freedom and space at that point in your degrees isn't it,

167
00:16:15,950 --> 00:16:21,380
to be able to really uncover the things that you're interested in and pursue that argument and that particular line of research.

168
00:16:22,130 --> 00:16:26,600
Absolutely. At the same time, during your degree, I believe you were doing some student journalism.

169
00:16:27,230 --> 00:16:33,950
Did you do other work experience or have any idea of those steps which then later took you want to enter the civil service?

170
00:16:34,220 --> 00:16:41,780
So yeah, that's a good question. So, I actually was more interested in journalism when I was when I was at Durham.

171
00:16:42,380 --> 00:16:46,220
So I did a few thingsdoef the Palatinate student newspaper there and the bubble,

172
00:16:46,220 --> 00:16:52,520
which was kind of more of a I'm not sure if it's still around or not, but it's more of a 

173
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,299
It's just an online blog. And I really didn't know, to be honest. That was a kind of later interest,

174
00:16:56,300 --> 00:17:03,620
but I had no real idea what I wanted to do up until the point that I got an offer to go and go work at the Treasury.

175
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,930
I must have applied for a couple of dozen grad schemes in my final year.

176
00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:13,820
The one thing I knew was that I thought I wanted to work rather than study more.

177
00:17:13,850 --> 00:17:20,989
I still certainly retain a desire and an appetite to go and do some more study in general.

178
00:17:20,990 --> 00:17:24,740
Fields. If I, if I, if I can make it work.

179
00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:29,080
But I was definitely like, you know, I hadn't taken a gap year between school university.

180
00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:34,249
I was pretty done at that stage. I think with the whole the, the whole kind of academic experience.

181
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:38,299
I just want to get out there into the world of work and there are loads of different things I was looking at.

182
00:17:38,300 --> 00:17:45,290
So I certainly wouldn't say if anyone is worried that, you know, they haven't decided in that second or third year exactly what they want to do.

183
00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:
But certainly it's not a concern, that it's always best, I think, to keep an open mind.

184
00:17:53,060 --> 00:17:55,040
As I said, I quite like different things.

185
00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:01,879
I applied for the Heathrow grad scheme and British Airways and generally kind of policy management consultancy,

186
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,360
that type of world, and just basically, you know,

187
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,559
go through you still get into times of the 100 best graduate employers

188
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,870
every year and just basically combing through that and seeing which ones looked more or less interesting.

189
00:18:15,710 --> 00:18:21,560
But I found it kind of a really tough process and I'm sure it's only gotten more competitive in the last few years.

190
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,719
in terms of graduate employment. Yeah, I found out.

191
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:35,860
I wasn't very good at the online tests all of these firms put you through and ended up getting not getting far with any of them really.

192
00:18:35,870 --> 00:18:43,130
I was getting to the stage where I was strongly considering like, you know, I can just I find my degree interesting.

193
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:48,529
I'm more than happy to stick around, apply for Masters, whether at Durham or somewhere else,

194
00:18:48,530 --> 00:18:51,320
and study for a year or two more and see where that takes me.

195
00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:58,700
But then I initially actually applied for the civil service fast Stream, which is the best known route into the civil service,

196
00:18:59,750 --> 00:19:05,600
but kind of naively because it was kind of one of the ones I thought I was more interested in to that it became available.

197
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,200
It was the first one of anything I applied for I'd never done an application for,

198
00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,530
so it was probably a fairly rubbish application that didn't go anywhere.

199
00:19:13,530 --> 00:19:15,380
I think I thought, Oh, that's that.

200
00:19:16,130 --> 00:19:21,650
But then I found out just a couple of days before the deadline that there was a separate graduate scheme for the Treasury.

201
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:27,800
Initially I thought, Oh, you'll have to be an economist, you need to be good with numbers to do that.

202
00:19:27,950 --> 00:19:34,340
So not for me, but I actually looked into it more. And actually you just need a degree in a discipline.

203
00:19:34,940 --> 00:19:38,509
not Economics to reach into the Treasury. But they want a policy official.

204
00:19:38,510 --> 00:19:40,880
It's just as much with a broader range of backgrounds.

205
00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:47,570
And then I ended up going to that interview and then I think it was a I think the interview might have been a Friday.

206
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:57,800
And then I was getting the train back to my family and was going to was going to start applying for four master's degrees the next day.

207
00:19:58,370 --> 00:20:03,800
But then I up getting a phone call on the train and offered me a job, at which point I was more than happy to accept.

208
00:20:04,190 --> 00:20:07,430
And yeah, I've been that been there ever since. That must have been very exciting.

209
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:14,190
Has your degree ever come up in conversation or when talking to other people working in your sector,

210
00:20:14,210 --> 00:20:16,310
is anyone ever surprised at your degree background,

211
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:22,700
or is there such a range that it's actually just interesting to meet people from all sorts of different academic places?

212
00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:28,729
So yeah, I'd say people are more surprised. People who don't work in the Treasury don't work in the civil service are more surprised when they

213
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:33,650
find out I work in the Treasury and the my degree is in ancient history and archaeology.

214
00:20:34,460 --> 00:20:42,650
There is still that external impression that, you know, it's just a load of bean counters who have got economics or maths backgrounds.

215
00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:49,549
But actually the Treasury is full of English lit graduates, history graduates, classicists, I would say.

216
00:20:49,550 --> 00:20:51,680
That's right. Yeah. I don't know.

217
00:20:51,680 --> 00:21:01,219
I don't have any figures to hand, but I'd say that's kind of a reasonable if not 50-50, then more humanities degrees kind of around the department.

218
00:21:01,220 --> 00:21:06,680
Then you've got, if anything, anything else, because I think that is ultimately kind of the key skill you need.

219
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:13,889
And I talked about a little bit is just that ability to pull together disparate strands of evidence to craft an argument.

220
00:21:13,890 --> 00:21:16,320
And the economics and the numbers are always a part of that.

221
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:22,380
And we have obviously a rich, strong economic analytical function that supports us in doing that.

222
00:21:22,590 --> 00:21:25,919
But it's certainly kind of no requirement.

223
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,110
And certainly, you know, I'm not I'm not someone who's brilliant with spreadsheets, I've got GCSE maths.

224
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:36,780
But no more than that, you kind of need to be numerate and able to understand numbers presented to you.

225
00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:42,240
And beyond that, it's just, it's just that kind of broader set of skills.

226
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:47,410
And it really, really helped me in my, in my roles in the Treasury.

227
00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:52,770
So no, I wouldn't say that within the department, not too much surprise when people find out what you've what you've done.

228
00:21:52,770 --> 00:22:00,840
And there is kind of lots of extracurricular type stuff that goes on with There is a history network, for example, in the department.

229
00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:02,879
They had a really interesting series.

230
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:10,560
So you might know that that the Treasury and a few other departments recently opened a new campus in Darlington, not too far away from Durham.

231
00:22:11,220 --> 00:22:14,460
And so the History Network ran a series on the history of the North East.

232
00:22:14,940 --> 00:22:20,579
And so that was super interesting all the way from the from the Roman Times and Hadrian's Wall

233
00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:27,050
through to the miners strike in the eighties and a more modern industrial history in that part of the world.

234
00:22:27,060 --> 00:22:31,500
But it does generally focus on more economic history in the past 2 to 300 years.

235
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:35,940
But occasionally you get a little bit of ancient history, which is nice to see, really.

236
00:22:35,940 --> 00:22:38,280
And you've worked in the banking and credit teams.

237
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,990
You've also worked quite a lot, I think, with EU budgets as well, and that more international outlook.

238
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:47,120
What does work look like for you on a on a day to day basis at the moment?

239
00:22:47,220 --> 00:22:54,660
What are some of the practical things that you're doing? So I started off working on international policy on EU finances, as you say,

240
00:22:54,680 --> 00:23:01,590
moved on to do three years in financial services, largely working on business lending policy,

241
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:08,460
which is really interesting, so that coincided with the pandemic and all the support for small businesses that we implemented then.

242
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:16,410
So that was a very interesting time and then I just moved on from that team in the last few weeks to work on taxation of financial services firms,

243
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:21,580
which is kind of still very new to me, but an interesting world nonetheless.

244
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:25,830
Day to day, there are loads of different things that we that we have to do.

245
00:23:26,220 --> 00:23:36,600
I would always spend some of my day early on making sure I kind of know what's going on in terms of the wider world of my policy area,

246
00:23:36,990 --> 00:23:42,150
making sure I get email alerts to news articles and things like that.

247
00:23:43,870 --> 00:23:44,969
related to my policy area, as I said,

248
00:23:44,970 --> 00:23:52,110
just making sure I'm up to date on any new developments that have come in overnight and sharing both anyone with anyone who needs them,

249
00:23:53,010 --> 00:24:00,520
then there are have some of the more day to day tasks like we get a lot of correspondence from the public that ministers need to respond to.

250
00:24:00,540 --> 00:24:08,700
So it's our job to draft out those responses, make sure they're answering members of the public, whatever questions they have,

251
00:24:09,060 --> 00:24:14,940
and then they get the minutes as a way so I can do a huge amount about the information going out to members of the public.

252
00:24:15,360 --> 00:24:23,999
And so we're always, always got a few days to be getting on with and then kind of lots of background,

253
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:29,390
background working on policy areas and regularly sending advice to ministers on them.

254
00:24:29,410 --> 00:24:36,209
So we'd always got kind of various different plates spinning in terms of policy changes, policy updates,

255
00:24:36,210 --> 00:24:42,950
policy challenges coming in from outside or things happening in the wider world where ministers will hear about it or read in the newspaper.

256
00:24:42,990 --> 00:24:44,550
They'll have meetings where they're told,

257
00:24:45,390 --> 00:24:50,940
where they're told something about a policy area and will be tasked to go and do something about it and regularly sending

258
00:24:50,940 --> 00:25:00,540
bits of advice to our ministers to make sure they kind of have all the information they need to make that to make decisions.

259
00:25:00,930 --> 00:25:05,040
Lots of kind of engagement as well with stakeholders working in the tax world.

260
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,500
We have a very close relationship with HMRC,

261
00:25:08,190 --> 00:25:15,569
so we're talking to them on a daily basis on our tax areas and also meeting with the outside world as well.

262
00:25:15,570 --> 00:25:21,000
That's one thing that is very important to the Treasury and the wider civil service is being open,

263
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,840
being approachable, meeting with our external stakeholders,

264
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,390
say because I'm in financial services tax,

265
00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:33,870
that often means kind of meeting with banks and other financial services organisations, other parts of the department.

266
00:25:33,870 --> 00:25:40,440
I know we'll be doing that in in many different areas. So that's kind of a little a little flavour of it.

267
00:25:40,950 --> 00:25:44,640
Thank you. That's a really helpful insight into more of the day to day work that you do.

268
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:48,830
One thing I know you've done outside of work is you have run the length of

269
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:55,830
Hadrian's Wall I believe. So what was the experience like and did it did it make you view ancient life on the wall differently?

270
00:25:56,670 --> 00:26:04,380
So yeah. So I've always wanted to walk Hadrian's Wall and my fiancé was into trail running.

271
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,330
So we kind of compromised and decided we'd run the length of Hadrian's Wall.

272
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,550
So we're both happy then, how long is it's I imagined longer than you think.

273
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:20,280
So yeah, it is about 80 miles, 135 kilometres is the path.

274
00:26:20,610 --> 00:26:26,040
And obviously you've got kind of all the sections in the middle which have relatively well-preserved rooms at the end of the band now,

275
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,000
but you basically tip all of the stones away to build other things, churches and so on.

276
00:26:30,570 --> 00:26:35,040
But he basically can be bothered to go up the big Crags in Northumberland to fetch everything down,

277
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,850
which is why all of those sections are much better preserved.

278
00:26:37,860 --> 00:26:45,179
But, you know, I think we did it in five days, adding between 25 and 35 kilometres a day and for the start.

279
00:26:45,180 --> 00:26:52,290
So we started in the northwest in Cumbria and then for the first day and a half say

280
00:26:52,290 --> 00:26:58,560
ran from come the coast of Cumbria to Carlisle, day 1, and no wall on that day.

281
00:26:58,890 --> 00:27:02,129
You're just kind of following the path a bit and maybe you can't actually see any

282
00:27:02,130 --> 00:27:05,610
evidence apart from a couple of churches which have even Hadrian's Wall stones.

283
00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:11,790
And then I think it was not until about halfway through that we actually saw and a little bit of wall for the first time.

284
00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:21,000
And then anyway, day three or day four, kind of we get through almost the whole time and but it was hugely enjoyable.

285
00:27:21,510 --> 00:27:25,780
We had to be nice weather, rain only, once and you kind of get that I mean,

286
00:27:25,780 --> 00:27:30,749
obviously now it's just in the middle of the English countryside and especially

287
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:37,290
when you're on those really exposed and isolated sections in Northumberland,

288
00:27:37,590 --> 00:27:43,260
you can kind of think back to, yeah, I think it was the pattern of Roman auxiliaries were,

289
00:27:43,260 --> 00:27:47,969
often taken from other other parts of other parts of the Empire and brought to Britain.

290
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:52,350
So you didn't have kind of like local auxiliaries potential for kind of fomenting eternal rebellion.

291
00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:54,080
But then you have, you know,

292
00:27:54,090 --> 00:28:05,160
you imagine someone is some 20 year old who's been taken from Syria or North Africa and finds and finds himself in, you know,

293
00:28:05,940 --> 00:28:12,210
horizontal sleet on Hadrian's Wall and looking at what to what then must have been, you know,

294
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:21,000
literally the edge of the world, must have been just kind of unlike anything we can really we can really imagine now.

295
00:28:22,050 --> 00:28:29,940
So I think that was the most, putting myself into their shoes that was, I think, the most insightful, the most insightful part of it.

296
00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:35,069
And also just being able to see kind of all that heritage along the way as well as all sorts as various,

297
00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:38,940
you know, all of the museums, Vindolanda, some of the other forts,

298
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:47,999
etc., which are generally well-preserved and have lots of really, really interesting information all around them.

299
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:54,000
And as a whole experience, I'd definitely recommend it, I maybe it's maybe it's slightly kind of

300
00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:59,399
self-flagellating to again at some point next, the Antonine Wall, slightly more up in Scotland.

301
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:06,000
I don't know I've got a whole trail for that and obviously that was just kind of a tough wall

302
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,750
I'm not to be honest, I don't really like running that much.

303
00:29:10,110 --> 00:29:14,400
And that was very much to get my get my fiance to agree to go to Hadrian's Wall.

304
00:29:14,820 --> 00:29:18,630
But you know 150 kilometres when not liking running is quite something.

305
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:25,050
But yeah, exactly. But I will there certainly other things I haven't seen that I would love to go and see.

306
00:29:25,710 --> 00:29:32,580
Petra and Jordan at the Near East generally I think is because so much of it is so well preserved.

307
00:29:32,940 --> 00:29:36,060
It just makes it kind of another level compared to, you know,

308
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:42,510
the forts that we've got of around around the UK have their place and they're interesting, but you just can't compare,

309
00:29:42,510 --> 00:29:52,050
you know, if you have half foot walls that that are left compared to these entire cities that preserved two or three stories which are,

310
00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:54,479
which is just incredible. So I'd love to do that.

311
00:29:54,480 --> 00:30:00,780
It's kind of a bit of a pipe dream at the moment, But yeah, somewhere like Syria is visitable during my lifetime.

312
00:30:01,230 --> 00:30:07,350
That would be incredible seeing some of the cities in that part of the world which obviously not safe to visit and hasn't been for a very long time.

313
00:30:08,490 --> 00:30:14,160
So we're going to finish with a few quickfire questions. First up, Suetonius or Tacitus.

314
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,220
Suetonius, you can't get over some of the stories in Suetonius are just wild.

315
00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:25,470
So I think Augustus's res gestae or Cicero's letters.

316
00:30:27,260 --> 00:30:38,360
But that is a tough one. I think I'll have to go with Augustus just because I think just having the sheer kind of cheek to write,

317
00:30:38,810 --> 00:30:42,980
you know, a book just entitled essentially these are all the great things I've done,

318
00:30:43,670 --> 00:30:48,290
I think is something you know, I don't think anyone would read that if I published my Res Gestae in a few years time.

319
00:30:49,010 --> 00:30:53,840
I'd say I recognise that flex for Augustus. I think that's quite, quite admirable.

320
00:30:54,230 --> 00:30:59,090
Maybe a few more years down the line, maybe some more. And, you know, you have conquered the whole ancient world.

321
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:02,330
Yeah, exactly. Some favourite series.

322
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:10,490
Rome or Spartacus? Oh, Rome. Easy. Would you rather dine with Trimalchio queue or visit Nero at the Domus Aurea?

323
00:31:11,540 --> 00:31:18,480
Nero. Would you rather enter the Eleusinian mysteries or the cult of Mithras?

324
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:27,330
Cult of Mithras? Would you prefer to experience life on a Roman outpost or in the suburbs of Rome itself?

325
00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:36,520
That's a tough one. Love to be close to the. Close to everything that's going on in the cities.

326
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:43,450
But ultimately, I'm quite squeamish and I think the lack of hygiene and public sanitation in the cities was in practice.

327
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:50,680
I mean, I'll be happier out in the out in the countryside and an outpost. I think compared to that in the cold, wet misery of an outpost somewhere.

328
00:31:50,710 --> 00:31:55,000
Yeah, exactly. But at least probably smells nicer. Personal one here.

329
00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:59,680
Cricket or football? Cricket. I believe you are quite the sports fan.

330
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,860
So. Sorry for making you choose. Enthusiastic.

331
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:05,800
More than talented. I think that's all it takes sometimes.

332
00:32:07,180 --> 00:32:14,110
And finally, what's the place or idea or person from the world that particularly resonated with you?

333
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:22,540
Good question, I think places I think I've already talked about Hadrian's Wall,

334
00:32:22,540 --> 00:32:29,850
but that certainly was something that really I really enjoys in terms of artefacts.

335
00:32:29,860 --> 00:32:38,290
The one, the one that always really impressed me when I see it, when I first read about it and ended up and especially get to look for it,

336
00:32:38,290 --> 00:32:46,569
I think in the British Museum is I think it's called the Meroe head of Augustus, which was it's a great story.

337
00:32:46,570 --> 00:32:50,800
I think it was an account of where it was taken from, I think somewhere in North Africa.

338
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:59,560
And it was a statue of Augustus. I think the it's some kind of invaders from modern day Sudan.

339
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:05,440
I think, came in and knocked the head off the statue and took it back.

340
00:33:06,490 --> 00:33:09,729
And then as like an ultimate insult,

341
00:33:09,730 --> 00:33:15,220
they buried it under the steps to their temple so that everyone going up to

342
00:33:15,370 --> 00:33:19,880
worship in that temple had to kind of step on Augustus's face to get there.

343
00:33:19,900 --> 00:33:25,459
And I think that kind of I think that's just kind of a microcosm of that interest.

344
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:27,000
Then you can get out of the ancient world.

345
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:32,950
and how just one object can be kind of interpreted and used in different ways, kind of for one group,

346
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:39,639
it's kind of an artefact of for another, it's something to kind of step on or not even notice as you walk past.

347
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,450
It can be now seen in the British Museum. Fascinating.

348
00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:47,410
Thank you so much. I think those are some really great quickfire answers there as well.

349
00:33:48,190 --> 00:33:53,229
Thank you very, very much for your time. Thank you for being an excellent guest on the Classics podcast.

350
00:33:53,230 --> 00:33:55,000
Sam Bentley. Thank you.