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Hello and welcome back to the Classics Podcast and I'm delighted to be joined this week by Sabah Hussain.

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Sabah is the Migration and Citizenship Team Leader at Rights and Security International,

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and she's trained as an investigative journalist, having studied her first degree in ancient World Studies at University College London.

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It's brilliant to have you with us today, Sabah. Thank you so much for having me.

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And thank you for having me on the podcast, which comes with a brilliant charity.

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I really support all of your work, so it's great to be here. That's lovely to hear.

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So can you just tell us a little bit about your current role and your day to day work as a migration and citizenship team leader?

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Yeah, of course. So I work for a charity called Rights and Security International,

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and we work at the intersection between governments' human rights policies and how

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they and the security and defence policies and how they might infringe human rights.

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And we what we started off as an organisation founded over 30 years ago that focussed mainly on Ireland,

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Northern Ireland and came out of the Troubles but we are now international,

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we have projects in the Global South, we have projects in northeast Syria.

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We have quite a diverse array of projects. And what I do specifically is I work on migration, citizenship issues, I work with a team.

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And yeah, we do work on repatriations, repatriation of foreign fighters from north-eastSyria.

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They do work on citizenship deprivation, on the rights of migrants and asylum seekers.

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So it's really, really interesting work and I kind of fell into it.

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It wasn't always like the plan, but I really love what I do.

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And then I think I guess Classics was part of that journey as well.

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Some of the most interesting careers and opportunities come about when you least expect them, don't they, or when you fall into them.

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So how did that come about? Because you did your master's in investigative journalism, I think.

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Although how exactly happened was that someone that I studying with doing my

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master's said that the charity needed someone to do a bit of photography for them.

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And I know my way a little bit around the camera.

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So I thought, sure, I'll do that. And both of those years ago now and then I interned for them, and then I freelanced for them.

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And then I started working for the charity full time first in comms.

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And so I think that's where I like my that's how I started, because industrial journalism,

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I guess is journalism is related to comms and that area of communications and all that kind of stuff.

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So I started work working in comms and then I transitioned because I had a position for a few years.

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And so then I started doing policy work, which I really love.

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Yeah. And do you find that the the the two actually work quite well together because it's all about developing

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relationships and telling stories and how you bring out the key parts of a particular story to then affect policy.

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In some ways, yeah.

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In some ways it is about trying to find the the parts of the story that will resonate the most with people, the parts of the story that are important.

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I guess with journalism, comms it's like trying to bring the most, I guess, the juiciest bit to the lie.

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And that's kind of the same with, I guess in human rights, not so much the juiciest, the saddest,

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often the most important, most important story is the things that are really impactful, often negatively.

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And it's about trying to actually cause change in policy so that some of those terrible things can stop happening.

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And on a personal level, how do you find working in such a difficult area and the impact you can and sometimes perhaps can't make?

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The issues I work with never fail to shock me, and I think it will be a really sad world if stuff like this ever fails to shock us.

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So it's not that I've become desensitised to the work, but it's more that I know that by doing the work that's how positive things are achieved.

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And so I think that's the kind of thing that keeps me going.

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And I don't let it faze me because I have a very wonderful circle network of friends and family.

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And so when I'm able to log off work, I'm able to switch off and not let horrible things get to me,

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obviously, especially when I was working the comms side.

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You do get some nasty messages online from people kind of saying you work on fairly controversial issues,

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kind of saying, I'm probably good doing this work and fairly horrible things,

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but if you just like switch off and you believe in the work that you're doing, hopefully won't affect you as some might expect.

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So let's go back a little bit in time and talk about how you first got involved in studying the ancient world.

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Was that something that you had the opportunity to do at school? Yes.

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So I had the fortune and privilege of having some really fantastic teachers at school shout out to my teachers at my secondary school.

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And I took Latin for.

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not for GCSE or A-level but A level classics,

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and my teachers were so incredibly passionate that I think I had a taster lesson.

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And I think after the first lesson this was on when I was 15 or something, I said, This is what I'm going to study as a degree.

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And I absolutely fell in love with it. I think a lot of people fall into classics because of the languages or the history,

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and I find it interestingg, I'm not so much a linguist, but I'm not very good at Latin.

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I don't remember any else, unfortunately, but I love the storytelling, I love the mythology, and I absolutely fell in love with it.

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I just thought it was so interesting and it was just fascinating, so fun as well.

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And with so because Pick up the passion of my teachers.

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I did classics then until GCSE and then A-level and then degree level.

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It's always wonderful to hear such great stories of fantastic teachers and that wonderful learning

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experience that you've had that got you hooked on classics and then carried it through as well.

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So you went to University College London for your degree in Ancient World Studies.

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So how broad was it? What were some of the things you studied and perhaps enjoyed most?

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So I studied Ancient worlds, which basically is distinct from the classics.

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In that classics with the classics degree at UCL, you would need to study the languages for your whole degree.

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But with ancient worlds, you could drop it after about a year and a half. So I think I took classics.

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I took the language of Latin for a year and a half, I believe,

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and then I dropped it to take more modules in philosophy and history and literature and theatre.

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So yeah, it was, it was distinct in that way. And I think that's why I decided I was really grateful for that flexibility because I,

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like I said, languages are not my strong suit, which is ironic.

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Then I went on to take Italian at uni and then to do a year abroad,

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which is another opportunity that was afforded me, but I might not have the chance to do with other degrees.

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So I think classics just generally the point that just opens up a little doors, it lets you kind of do things that you never imagined.

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Classics is so multifaceted. Like I said, you have a language, but then you have the literature and storytelling and you have the theatre,

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you have the philosophy, and you can, if there is generally a kind of the creative thing that you want to do.

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You have the opportunity to experience classics, which I love. That's brilliant.

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And what did you get up to then on your year abroad? That sounds wonderful.

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You got to go to Italy. Whereabouts and how did you combine your classics with your Italian learning?

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Yep. So I studied in Bologna and it was one of the best years of my life.

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It was a fantastic and I don't know how much classics I really engaged with in my year abroad because we had some classes taught in Italian.

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And so and I think some of the classes were ancient Greek taught in Italian.

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And so with my limited knowledge of Italian, my very limited knowledge of ancient Greek

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Basically you can kind of guess how well that went and I think have quite terrible anecdote.

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When I went into an exam expecting to do the exam in English and the professor then went this.

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exam is in ancient Greek, but yes, I don't know how much we engaged with the classics,

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but it was just nice to be able to go to Rome for a few days and really see like the historical monuments used or artefacts being able to kind

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of live and breathe in some opportunities rather than kind of studying it from an academic respect to have actually going to experience that.

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I think that was one of the really nice things about studying classics abroad and a good time was enjoyed by all.

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What's one of the places or people or ideas that resonated with you, particularly from the ancient world.

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I think one of the one of the things I think the idea of the gods,

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I think really resonates with me and not because I believe in the ancient gods as we understand them.

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But I think the the system of belief that the ancient world had kind of believing in something that was so that was so anthropomorphic,

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same time, intangible, but at the same time somewhat tangible.

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I think that whole belief system was so. Intriguing to me.

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And and it was it was almost like it was so unbelievable.

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But I think that's in the same in the same way. That might be how people perceive faith today.

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I'm I'm a religious person. I believe in God.

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And it's just kind of that really unshakeable faith that people had in something that was quite inexplicable.

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Yeah, it's something that I find quite impressive and interesting and something that resonated with me.

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I think what's so interesting from an ancient perspective as well is how that faith and religious belief also translated itself into so

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much creativity and is infused within the art and the literature and the ritual that we see in so many ways which survive so strongly,

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obviously both within a religious and philosophical tradition,

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but also within the sites and the ruins still remaining and the literature still remaining.

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It's really feels so fresh and so recent and modern in some ways.

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Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the the consistent fascination that we have with the ancient world, I mean, over 2000 years later,

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we people, you know, and especially in a modern and a modern age where we have so many distractions around us,

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we have so many so much of the modern world that is so compelling, like tech, AI, all of that stuff,

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the fact that people still have fascination with the ancient world, it really shows how multifaceted it was.

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That's why I think classics is so distinct from history, because history, obviously we're looking at facts,

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but classics is that beautiful mixture, that beautiful composite of fact and fiction, which I think a lot of people find very interesting.

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I think often it's a bit of escapism when you go and study classics.

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A world that seems too weird to be true. That's such a great way of putting it.

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And at the same time, so many of the problems that people face in the ancient world we still face today and I'm sure are also linked with the work

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that you do at the moment when it comes to things like migration and it comes to also questions of citizenship.

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How has your studies then influenced the way that you view your work now, do you think, and particularly around that idea of citizenship?

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I think in some way. I mean, of course, it instilled things like critical thinking, which I use in my everyday work.

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But I think also what interest in the world of the people in it I think fulfilled in me, but also in classes kind of rethinking about that.

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We would talk to people that existed in the ancient world who had all sorts of different kind of rights.

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You had the the rich and the poor, and then you had the women who were confined to their quarters.

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You had the slaves and you had different types of people, courtesans and you had

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kind of more domestic slaves and you had yet emperors and you had priests.

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And everyone came with their own set of rights. And you think about the vestal virgins, you know,

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the fact that these women were confined to perform these these rights and rituals because of who they were.

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And that kind of inequality in society is really interesting.

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The fact that 2000 years ago that was the hierarchy of society was so ingrained and problematic,

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and yet now we still have a lot of the same hierarchies, even though they come in a very different format,

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those hierarchies are still very, very problematic,

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and often they come in the guise of government policies that are said to are meant to do things for the better of society,

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but actually end up damaging people's rights. So after you finished your first degree, you did a second degree in investigative journalism.

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Was that straight away? Did you have a gap, did you work in between, or how did you come to that next step in your career path?

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Yeah, so I did it straight after my degree. I always knew that I wanted to do journalism.

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I think as well as always being in love with classics, I'd always been in love with the idea of being a journalist.

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And I wasn't sure entirely of how to access journalism.

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I knew that to get into journalism, you often have to have contacts.

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And journalism as well was very white.

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And so not being a white person and not having kind of those contacts, it was more difficult for me to access journalism.

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And so I thought I met someone kind of on a chance meeting.

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I met with someone who was doing the Master's at City University,

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which has a really great journalism school, and they were just finishing up their masters.

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And so I thought, okay, this is a great opportunity for me to be able to get into it.

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So I did the Masters, started my master's around September, October of that year, the same year that I graduated from my undergrad.

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And then, yeah, I did a one year master's and I think some of it took a while of classics and storytelling.

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I think investigative journalism is also about storytelling. It's about finding those details to bring to light.

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And I guess my degree and my master's was.

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Similar to the work I do now in uncovering.

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Terrible things. And bringing them to light. So, yeah.

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So I went straight from my undergrad to my masters. And is that why do you think that classicists tend to really make good journalists?

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That might be why I think it is. It's all about storytelling, isn't it? It's about finding really interesting details and writing about them.

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And I think classicists especially like I say things, you know, how to how to write a good piece.

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And so I guess you do show a lot those skills. Indeed.

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And looking to the future, do you have any particular goals in mind without trying to sound too much like your mum here?

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But anything that particularly attracts you within the career of journalism, but also the sector within which you're working as well?

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Sometimes it's a bit overwhelming but I think sense doing a lot of classicists go to law.

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I would wonder whether law was an option for me. But like I said, I fell into human rights by chance.

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I kind of planned to work in journalism for a long time,

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but then I was led to work with this organisation, Rights and security International which does such excellent work for a small team.

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But it's really it's really excellent. And I think I would love to continue working in human rights for quite a few

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years because I feel like here is where I can make a meaningful difference.

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And is there a piece of advice that you would give to either your previous self or to a student,

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perhaps in a similar situation who's enjoyed the ancient world in some form, either at school or through accessing mythology?

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They may have done it at university, but they're looking at all the different options open to them in the world.

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And part of this podcast is showing that there are so many options and that you can really apply

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whichever part of your skills and your knowledge and your interest to what fascinates you,

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because any advice that you'd give to a young person in that position? I think it's similar to what you just said.

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I think it's really about you can do anything. I mean, the ability to do postgraduate study, that is very much a privilege that not everyone has.

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But I think there's always an opportunity to do something else, something new, if you'd like.

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I think the most important thing is to be confident in your skills.

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I think analyse all your skills, assess what your skills is it writing, is it analysis.

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Is it anything, If you have a skill that is more even, is more like a soft skill,

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like being being personable, being sociable, kind of being a people person.

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Look at your skills. Look at how you can apply that to a job and try things.

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I mean, I'm in my mid-twenties and I think people at my age are like, I'm so old, I'm almost 30, but I think I'm so young.

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I think I'm very young. I've just really started my career.

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I haven't even been working for five years yet, and I think there's always time to change your options as well.

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Like I said, I worked in journalism for two years and then I started working in human rights.

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So and then who knows, I end up working different fields in the future.

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So I think be open to things.

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You have to change, be competent in your own skills and have faith in yourself, which sounds quite cringy, but it is very true.

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But we will draw to a close with the quick fire round. Would you rather meet Sappho or Cleopatra?

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Cleopatra. I think because Sappho as interesting as she was as as unique as she was, especially in the ancient world.

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I think Cleopatra kind of a Greek, is so often mistaken as an Egyptian.

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I think I'd be interested in meeting her and finding out a bit about the effect she had on men as well.

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I guess that sappho had kind of a similar effect on women or allegedly.

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But I want to know what's so epic about her.

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Would you rather watch a piece of Greek drama or a life Roman poetry reading?

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Trauma shooter. I think there's more action.

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I think probably be more entertaining. While I love some of the robots.

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Like I'm a big fan of Catullus. I'm a big fan of Ovid.

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I think watching drama I think is just that.

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I mean, Greek drama really set a foundation for so much more than drama.

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Sorry, this is a quick fire question. I'm giving an explanation. I don't know. Explanations are good. 

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We love them too. Yeah, I think there's so much more to it.

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Like I said, it's a foundation for modern drama. There's just so much melodrama in Greek drama, which I really enjoy.

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It's a lot of fun. Would you rather camp outside the walls of Troy or along Hadrian's Wall?

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Along the walls of Troy because was. Was Troy real?

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Who knows? Like with the Trojan War. Real. I want to know so much about this.

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Probably about Dictaphone or shorthand. Dictaphone.

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I don't know shorthand, oops! Longform Op-Ed or podcast series.

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I feel like I'm speaking on a podcast, I really I should say podcast there is.

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But I probably I mean, if I'm being true to myself, I probably say longform, but I have been getting a lot more input costs.

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And I did listen to a really interesting episode of this podcast.

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So that's a plug, I guess, for the podcast. You've gone straight to the top of the leaderboard for fitting that in!

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So what about your favourite myth? Or you can have your favourite mythological character either or both.

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That that's a big question. Big question. My favourite myth, I don't know.

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Like I have met so many. I think my favourite, I mean, I don't know.

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Mythological or not. Can I give maybe like a semi historical character?

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Odysseus. Yes. I think he was so unique compared to the other heroes in that role.

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From being known for his is brawn, his fighting skills.

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I think he was so intelligent, so cunning, and I think he really kind of won it all when he won it over the Greeks just through his brains alone.

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And I think that was quite cool. And brains can take us far.

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I think that's a great note on which to end your wisdom and your career story so far.

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With us on the Classics podcast. No worries at all. I look forward to future episodes.

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Thank you for having me.